Send & Grow by SparkLoop

Send & Grow Podcast by SparkLoop -- EP 45 - Gunnar Holm of Growjoy
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Gunnar Holm: [00:00:00] Some of our clients are using SparkLoop to basically offset some of their growth costs. And some of our clients are even getting close to one to one, uh, or if not a one to one like cost versus income. using SparkLoop. So what I mean by that is that for every dollar they're spending, they're getting 50 percent to 100 percent back using SparkLoop.

Dylan Redekop: Welcome to the Send and Grow podcast. My name is Dylan Redekop, and one exciting element of my job at Sparkloop is sitting down with fascinating guests in the newsletter space. And finding out how they're growing and monetizing their newsletters so you can learn from their journeys. Today, we're diving into a topic that's top of mind for any newsletter looking to scale rapidly.

Paid acquisition through social media ads. Gunnar Holm is my guest and he's the founder of Growjoy, an agency that helps newsletters scale growth with primarily meta ads. With Gunnar's expertise, we'll peel back the layers on what makes [00:01:00] meta ads the go to platform for newsletter growth. We'll reveal expert tips on crafting ads that really convert and discuss strategies for optimizing landing pages to increase conversions.

So whether you're about to take the leap into paid ads or looking to refine your existing ad strategy, you don't want to miss this conversation. Awesome to finally have you on the podcast Gunnar. I'm really excited for this chat. Why don't we start with Growjoy, your newsletter growth agency.

Gunnar Holm: Thank you so much for having me on Dylan.

Um, yeah, sure. Um, yeah, so my name is Gunnar. I run a paid newsletter growth agency called the Growjoy. We work with some of the biggest newsletters in the world, mainly in the B2C niche. And yeah, been working with newsletters for two or three years now. And, uh, I've been in the in the weeds of the newsletter game for quite some time and loving it.

That's great. That's great.

Dylan Redekop: Yeah, it's awesome to see what you're what you're doing for your clients on on social media because you're really open to sharing that stuff, which is awesome. [00:02:00] So that's why I'm excited to have you on because I've seen the awesome success you've had there. So why don't we, you know, dive right into it.

We're going to talk a lot about. Essentially paid growth through social media today. And why don't we start right there with ad platforms? You know, the most, the most popular well known ad platforms right now for newsletter growth, at least that I hear about are Facebook and Twitter or X. But what platforms are you finding are driving, are working the best right now for newsletter ads?

Gunnar Holm: Say that, um. Probably 80 to 90 percent of our ad spent, uh, is spent on, uh, mad ads. So that's Facebook and, uh, and Instagram. We're always trying to make Twitter work just because like in certain periods, the CPA on Twitter is a little lower than the meta. And usually the engagement quality that we're getting from Twitter is a bit higher as well.

I think it's, um. Due to the fact that Twitter users are more used [00:03:00] to consuming content through text. So we're always trying to make Twitter work. But the fact of the matter is that Twitter is very unstable. And it's very hard to scale. And the meta ads platform is just unmatched when it comes to user experience for the actual ad buyers.

So. We're spending most of our ad spend on, on Meta, but always trying to, to use other platforms as well. But. There's nothing really like meta at the moment. So, um, so yeah, mainly meta.

Dylan Redekop: That's the most powerful right now. Okay. Good to know. Good to know. Um, so let's focus in on Facebook today as far as kind of what we're going to run through, kind of give people maybe a little bit of a really, you know, quick and dirty sort of playbook for say meta ads.

Um, so Let's start with what may arguably be the most important aspect of, you know, doing these ads. And that's the ad creative itself. The hustle might have been one of the first newsletters to really nail Facebook ads, uh, as you know, [00:04:00] many of their ad, you know, structures and, and templates and frameworks have been copied by, you know, a ton of different newsletters.

And I think it is obviously because the success of their ad creative. So what are the most important elements that you've seen for a social media ad? To

Gunnar Holm: optimize conversions, I think the most important part is that it has to look organic to the platform. There's rare examples of us creating an ad that looks like an ad and also does well in terms of CPAs cost per acquisitions.

So I'd say the number one thing is the ad creative itself. And it has to look user generated. The term UGC ads is very popular at the moment. So what we usually do is we try to get, like, first of all, we try to get our clients to, to create content that they would probably. Be comfortable sharing on their social channels as well.

If they're not comfortable sharing it on their [00:05:00] social channels, it means that it's probably not that organic looking. It's too much of an ad. And we try to, first of all, have it as organic looking as possible. And then we focus on the copy. The copy needs to be, you know, it needs to talk to the right type of audience.

So usually you have to call out your ideal reader in. The actual ad creator. And then we also have had a lot of success lately with static ads. Some people might not know that the CPMs on images versus or like photos versus videos are usually half the price. Okay. So if you're able to nail the static ads and make that look organic, that can create like really low CPAs.

And a little tip on that is that we usually have higher or better success in terms of low CPAs when it comes to spending money on the, like doing the ads from the, [00:06:00] from like a personal account or like a personal brand account instead of like the faceless brand. So you mentioned the hustle like in, in their example, or to use them as an example for that, instead of using the hustle brands.

On the actual ads, you could use Sam Parr's face and name on the ads. That makes it look more organic and also You know, we'll drive more clicks.

Dylan Redekop: Right. Right. So having that, um, avatar of an actual person as opposed to this brand account posting that yet definitely makes a lot of sense. Exactly. Uh, should newsletters be promoting in these ads, their newsletter itself or the content of the newsletter in these, in the creative?

Gunnar Holm: Mm. Good question. Um, we usually try to. Promote the newsletter itself, because usually it really depends on, uh, the content of the newsletter, but like sometimes we're able to have, uh, to drive good traffic with like gated contents. [00:07:00] So, you know, uh, creating ads that have some piece of content in the ad and then driving it to a newsletter or article landing page where you can read the first part of the article, but then you have to subscribe to the newsletter.

And that can produce low CPAs, but at the same time, it might not have the highest of intents. So usually if you're going to spend money, you're better off spending it on the users that have a higher intent of actually continuing to read the newsletter.

Dylan Redekop: Okay. Okay. Yeah, I could see that working a little bit better for sure, especially, you know, if they are just subscribing, like, okay, fine, I'll enter my email address so I can read this one article.

But you know, they probably are not necessarily your ideal reader and could fall off and, you know, become a cold subscriber and, you know, hurt all of your, your metrics and stuff like that. So that, that is a good point. How about the call to action? What are the best call to actions for newsletters when it comes to

Gunnar Holm: conversion?

Yeah, when it comes to CTAs, it's usually. [00:08:00] a mix of everything. So you can have outcome based, uh, CTAs where it's like become a top 1 percent COO or, you know, become smarter, any of the usual stuff. And it's just, it's just a process of testing a lot of different stuff. Like, yeah, When it comes to newsletter ads and just ads in general, it's all about testing, you know, as much as possible.

So test, subscribe for free, join now, join a hundred thousand subscribers, join this community, become a top 1 percent CFO, test everything. So there's not really a specific answer when it comes to. Like what you should be doing on CTAs. And one newsletter can have great results with one type of CTA. And then the next week it doesn't work anymore, right?

So it's really, it really comes down to testing what works for, uh, for those specific

Dylan Redekop: ads. Okay, cool. So test CTAs, which [00:09:00] makes a ton of sense. Would you, one thing I've seen, um, and you mentioned it in your answer is, a bit of social proof, like join 100, 000 subscribers. Is it more important to have that on, on the ad and CTA or on the landing page?

Gunnar Holm: I'd say both. Okay. Included in like, because when you're creating ads, you can create different variations to the ad. And what we always do is that we always have I think it's like five variations that Meta allows you to, to include. So I'd always include like subscribe for free, join a hundred thousand subscribers, become a part of the community, become a top 1 percent CFO, and then letting Meta decide what, uh, what works best.

And on that note. Meta usually knows what works best. You can do however much you want when it comes to, you know, trying to get the algorithm to work for you, kind of like hack the algorithm. But the algorithm is just like so smart. Usually, if you've never done ads before, you should definitely [00:10:00] try to test out broad targeting at first.

Do A B testing, let Meta decide which ad set gets the most spend. Basically, give Meta as many pointers as possible, and then let Meta do the rest from there. Okay. And. By that, I make it sound easy and you can be lucky and hit the jackpot on the first try, but it's all like, it's all a testing game and it's very much a creative game these days.

Like the actual ad creative itself is what actually drives your results. If you used to be possible to drive results with the right type of targeting, but these days it's

Dylan Redekop: usually that creative. Yeah. And I was going to ask you actually about. You know, targeting an audience and that sort of thing to optimize.

Before I do that, you had mentioned something about testing and, you know, experimenting with paid ads. So in terms of, you know, if I'm, if I'm new to this, I'm not quite ready to hire somebody like Growjoy, but I want to, you know, throw some money at it. What would be kind of a minimum budget that someone would [00:11:00] need and a minimum amount of time they need to really kind of get some direction and some, some

Gunnar Holm: results from this.

Um, I'd say that the minimum budget is probably 50 per day, but that's also coming from working with usually bigger clients and bigger budgets. Okay. Um, it's probably going to work with 20 as well, but the higher ad spend you can start off like right out of the gate, you're usually better off. But the minimum is probably between like 20 and that's on a campaign.

And then you can let Meta decide which assets it wants to allocate the spend towards. But That said, I started out doing newsletter ads because I was growing my own newsletter. I had a local newsletter here in Oslo, and I think we were probably testing, you know, 20 per day, maybe even less in the beginning.[00:12:00]

So it's, it's probably possible to start with even, you know, less than that. But. To get the best type of results and have the algorithm optimize as quickly as possible, I would probably not recommend going under 50, but at the same time, it's probably going to work with 10 to 20 as well, but it will take longer for the, for the algorithm to actually optimize.

Dylan Redekop: I assume the less you're spending, the longer it's going to take for you to kind of figure out or for Meta to figure out, you know, optimization for your ads. Is that correct? Yes. Correct. Yeah. Okay. So

Gunnar Holm: usually if you're starting out with, let's say, uh, 10, 20, 30, it's going to take longer to hit your target CPA usually.

Dylan Redekop: Okay. Okay. Great. That makes sense. Let's then talk about, I mentioned it before, let's, but let's talk about targeting an audience. And is there a best, a best practice to optimize targeting an audience? I know if you're running a local newsletter, like you had mentioned that you started with, obviously you're going to be targeting a very specific, you know, geography.

But, um, let's say we're not [00:13:00] targeting a specific geography, we're a kind of broad appeal newsletter. What, what are some of the best practices that you would recommend for, for something with targeting an audience? Yeah,

Gunnar Holm: I'd say when you're starting out, you should definitely use that, uh, something called the Advantage Plus targeting on med ads.

And what that is, is that you are basically using. the entire meta platform as your target audience. So you're basically targeting millions of users, but you can give the meta algorithm kind of like pointers to who you're trying to reach. So you can say, for example, I'm trying to reach people between the age of 30 and 55, and it's a male dominant audience.

And they're interested in technology, or they're interested in water sport activities, anything. And what it will do is that it will use your pointers to go after this entire audience. So you're not just targeting the audience that matches [00:14:00] your criteria, but it's using that as kind of like a feedback loop when it goes out to the pool of users and, and finding your people that are, that's actually reacting to your ads and, you know, subscribing and converting.

So at least in the beginning, I'd test going as broad as possible. While giving them an ad algorithm, uh, as many pointers as possible. But then I would also keep a really good track on your engagement on the backend. And what I mean by that is, um, you should be tracking all of your ads down to the actual ad.

So you can include certain, uh, UCM parameters in your, uh, URLs on your ads. And you can basically track all subscribers back to the actual ads. And the ad set and the campaign that you're running on Meta. And then you should be basically checking, okay, what kind of quality am [00:15:00] I getting with, with the, you know, this ad set and this ad set and this campaign in Meta.

And then if you're not getting the engagement or results that you're basically aiming for with your ads, you should try to go more niche from there. And what I mean by that is that sometimes if you're going broad, Meta is optimizing to get you as low CPA as possible. And sometimes that can hurt your backend performance, right?

Because a low CPA doesn't equal a high quality subscriber. So you need to be optimizing and checking that. Okay. The subscribers from this campaign got this CPA, but the open rates and click through rate is much lower. They're not buying the backend offer or they're not joining the community. Then I need to start targeting other audiences.

So from there, I'd go a little bit more niche. So for example, if you're starting very broad with the technology, [00:16:00] newsletter, you can start, you can go off the advantage plus targeting feature. Okay. And then basically go more niche from there and, and have a smaller audience. Got it. Okay,

Dylan Redekop: great. We've got our creative ad set, uh, campaign is live and we've been running our ad campaign for a few days, but the CPA is way too high.

What are some of the best ways to kind of drive down that CPA or do we even need to do

Gunnar Holm: anything? Um, it depends sometimes. You can start out with a high CPA in the beginning, and then the, the algorithm will basically optimize from there and you will get a lower and lower CPA as time goes by, because the more data, uh, you're giving the algorithm, the more it will learn who your, um, best audience is.

Okay? But usually, uh, this, this is usually controversial with other media buyers. I never have. An ad creative that starts out as a non winner turn into a winner. [00:17:00] So I'm usually very like, I kill my darlings very quickly. So if it's not a winner by the second or third day, I'm killing it. And it's just based on, you know, experience.

Usually if it's a, if it's a winner, it's going to win with it within, like in my experience within the first day. Uh, and sometimes, you know, second, third. May be fourth day, but if it's not winning by that day, it's usually not a winner. So, but what you can do is that you can, you should just test different creatives.

If you're not getting a good CPA and it's been like a week or two, it's probably the creatives. It's usually not a targeting issue. It's usually like, okay, who are you attracting with your ad creatives? If I took a look at your ad and I see like, okay, it's a good looking ad. And it's, uh, it's probably attracting somewhat of the right audience, but it's not, you know, attracting that [00:18:00] specific audience that you want and that, you know, actually is interested in this newsletter.

You're going to be spending a lot of money. That's going to be a waste. So it's all a matter of testing new copy in the, in the creatives. Calling out the right type of audience. So if, if it's a UGC ad, I always start every single UGC ad by calling out the audience in the first second. Uh, because think about it, like you have less than a second to catch someone's attention.

Uh, and they're going to be skipping your ad as quickly as possible. So if you're not calling out your audience in the first second, It's not going to work. So what I always try to do is like, I sometimes forget my own rules even. So I can take, take a look at one ad and see that, okay, I'm actually not calling out my, my audience here.

So I will take that creative, send it to the, to the designer or animator or like our creative person, basically tell her like, okay, Can you call [00:19:00] out the audience here and like make it big and bold in like in the middle of the frame and Sometimes that fixes everything like it can turn into a winner from like a poor loser.

So So it's all a matter of like, okay diagnosing the issue and the issue is usually you're not calling out the audience And from there, it's, um, it's a bunch of variables, but that's usually like the first issue that I try to

Dylan Redekop: solve. Could you give you a quick example of like UGC, which is user generated content, correct?

If I'm not mistaken.

Gunnar Holm: Yeah. Yeah. So I'll give you, uh, I'll give you an example.

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Get started before it's too late. And now, back to the episode. Could you give a quick example of like a UGC, which is user generated content, correct? If I'm

not

Gunnar Holm: mistaken? Yeah. Yeah. So I'll give you a. Okay. Bye. I'll give you an example. I just ordered an ad today from, uh, an actor in his, um, probably his late fifties.

Okay. And he's sitting in the middle of a podcast studio that kind of looks like Joe Rogan's old podcast studio. And he's talking into, uh, like one of these podcast microphones. And It looks like a very organic piece of content when he's recording. So what I sent to him was kind of like a short script [00:21:00] of like the newsletter that I'm trying to advertise.

And he's going to click that and kind of like make it organic looking and make it look like it's coming directly from a podcast. That's one example. And that's probably a poor example because you can make it look more user generated than that, because it's usually more like a influencer looking type of girl or man speaking into an iPhone camera.

and talking about your product in some type of way. And it usually looks like a TikTok. So for example, you know, everybody that has scrolled through TikTok has seen people talking about interesting stuff into the camera. It's basically like that, but it's talking about the

Dylan Redekop: newsletter. Got it. Okay. Perfect.

Thank you for sharing that example. Let's talk about The actual challenge with paid ads being that you kind of have to convert people twice, right, to actually get them on your newsletter list. You have to get them converted on the ad. And then again, on your landing page. So You don't want to waste all the effort you put into your ad and [00:22:00] then, you know, screw up the landing page experience.

So my question would be like, where should your social media ad drive your traffic? What is, what is the, the best place? Should it be right into some content, some ideal content or a specific landing page that's created specifically for say meta ads, uh, meta ad traffic, or could it just be your general landing page that anybody would be driven to?

Gunnar Holm: The most important part is that the landing page needs to correlate with the ad. So if your landing page does not speak to what they were sold on, on the ad, They're not going to convert. You're going to get a high click through rate on your ads, but they're not going to produce a good CPA, meaning that they're not converting on your landing page.

Uh, so if you're seeing that your ads are, uh, getting a good click price or good CTR and a good, uh, click through rates, You know that the ad [00:23:00] is actually like, it's, it's probably good, but if the CPA is not keeping up, it's probably something, it probably has something to do with the landing page. So a good way to diagnose the problem is to go through your landing page and compare it to the ads.

And make sure that it's actually correlating with the ads. So what I mean by that is that, for example, if your ad is talking about, for example, how to become a better investor by selling them on this, this and this feature, but then they go to a general landing page that speaks nothing to those features.

You know, there's a non correlation. So the most important part of diagnosing that problem is making sure that it's correlating. And what I would do is that I would probably sign up for like Leadpages or anything like that, which is a platform that allows you to create a bunch of different landing pages.

And then you can create landing pages based on specific [00:24:00] ads. So you can take your top performing ads and basically creating them. Customized landing pages for those top performing ads to make the CPA even better. Great. And

Dylan Redekop: would you, do you AB test those or is it just a matter of having just one solid ad that converts to a specific landing page that's highly correlated with the ad?

Gunnar Holm: Yeah, so we usually A B test it by switching over to the new landing page and comparing the new CPA with the old CPA, but it's, um, it's usually only on the top performers. So it's not like A B testing in the typical sense of A B testing, but we're always comparing the new results to the old

Dylan Redekop: results. Okay.

Perfect. And so what are the things that you believe, aside from maybe correlation or the, the landing page? You know, Corresponding to the ad, what do you believe every newsletter landing page needs to have to be optimized for conversion from ad

Gunnar Holm: traffic? Uh, good question. Um, That's, that's usually a title [00:25:00] that speaks to the audience in very big bold letters.

Like the first point is big letters. Like if your text is hard to read and in like a small font size, it's probably not going to convert very well, but it's usually social proof. Uh, some testimonials. If it's a personal brand, uh, can quickly go into who the person writing that the newsletter is. And then maybe some, uh, some examples of the content, maybe even like a small CTA that speaks to a specific type of content that's, uh, you know, sign up now and get this piece of content delivered straight to your inbox or something like that.

But yeah, I think, um, like usually. If you can include faces on your landing page, it's, that can be very positive for your conversion rates. Oh, interesting. Okay. People buy [00:26:00] from people like people want to read content from people. So what we usually see is the, our newsletter clients that have a personal brand or like a actual face on the brand, uh, get higher conversion rates on their landing pages.

They get higher engagement on their newsletter. They're able to optimize it. better. People like the newsletter a lot more than the other faceless brands. So if you're open to using your face as kind of like the face of the brand, I highly recommend that. Awesome. That's

Dylan Redekop: a really good insight. Thanks for sharing that.

Are there any other considerations people should be aware of with landing pages, like, you know, optimizing for mobile versus desktop, you know, some other ways to bring down CPAs with like paid recommendations or anything

Gunnar Holm: like that? Yeah. So you should optimize for both, both desktop and mobile, but Most paid traffic is from mobile.

It's probably more than 80, 80, 90%. Wow. You should make sure that, well, it depends on what the age you're targeting, but it's usually like the [00:27:00] majority of your, of your traffic, and then you should make sure that the landing page loads very, very quickly. And then when it comes to using like a recommendation system, you should also make sure that that loads very quickly.

You should make sure that you, like your. Recommended or your recommendations actually matches the profile of the audience and usually we have a higher conversion rate to the page like the network referral program by using similar news areas to yours, like, at least in the same niche, because you only want, you only know one thing about your audience on your paid traffic.

And that's that they're interested in your newsletter. So if you're, if they're interested in your newsletter, they're probably going to be a bit more interested in a similar newsletter, so I'd recommend recommending other newsletters in a similar niche or maybe even the same niche. [00:28:00] And then spending time in your network referral program almost, if not every day, every other day, making sure that you're getting the best type of conversion rates, the best type of acceptance rates, and basically pinning the newsletters that are giving the best type of conversion rates.

Okay.

Dylan Redekop: Awesome. So again, we've been talking for about almost 40 minutes and we've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything that I should have asked you that I haven't? What, what should we, what have we missed so far?

Gunnar Holm: Yeah. So one thing is that when it comes to targeting, a little hack has been going after top either 15, 10 or 5 percent household income has actually generated better results on the backend.

So usually like if you're selling a product or Like most newsletters are about subjects that interest like a higher income audience, at least across our clients. And we've seen that as long as we're [00:29:00] filtering out or filtering in top household income, we get better results in terms of open rates, click through rates, and also in terms of conversions to pay products and stuff like that.

Okay. Okay. So that's one thing. And that's very easy to do in the, in the meta ads dashboard. The second thing is that lead magnets can be great for paid traffic. And what I mean by that is that back to the fact that you have less than one second to grab your reader's attention on an ad, but then you have to sell them on subscribing to your newsletter.

So you better be solving a specific problem very quickly, or at least a problem that they're able to understand very quickly. To give you an example on that, for my local newsletter, I was basically, uh, I was writing about five local events every single week that's [00:30:00] happening in my hometown. And that's, that's a problem that most people in my hometown can relate to.

Like they want to find the cool stuff to do. Right. So using that piece of content or like that part of the newsletter as kind of like a lead magnet to your newsletter, probably going to produce better CPAs because your audience can quickly relate to the problem and they can quickly envision themselves, you know, with that problem being solved, like they, they can envision themselves going to cooler events.

So lead magnets can be good, but only if they're done in the right way. Like, um, if you're doing a lead magnet that's very broad and not really specific to your newsletter, and it's not very correlated with your newsletter content in general, then you're probably going to be getting, uh, Low CPA, but people will drop off very quickly.

So the engagement [00:31:00] rate will probably not be that great. So I just want to close off on that, uh, on that final note that lead magnets can be great, but only if they're done the right way. Yeah, the

Dylan Redekop: context really needs to be there, right? It has to, it really has to support the, um, the actual newsletter content that they're going to be receiving.

Exactly. I wanted to ask you quickly because I know you've had a lot of success with this and it's a great strategy to cut down on advertising costs. Can you just talk to us a little bit about if you're willing, um, about how paid recommendations have kind of in some ways changed the game of, of newsletter ads and, and your experience using

Gunnar Holm: paid recommendations?

Yeah. So some of our clients are using SparkLoop to basically offset some of their growth costs. And some of our clients are even getting close to one to one, uh, or if not a one to one like cost versus income, uh, using SparkLoop. So what I mean by that is that for every dollar, they're, they're, they're, they're, Spending, they're getting 50 percent to 100 [00:32:00] percent back with using Sparkle.

So that has completely changed the game for those clients because they're able to retrieve that cashflow immediately. Like usually when you're running newsletter ads, you're talking about like recouping your investment in like three to six months, maybe even more. Like I was talking to a, to a newsletter operator the other day that was recouping his investment in like 12 months.

And that's a major cashflow issue. Like if you're spending, you know, a hundred K this month and you have to wait 12 months to get it back, it kind of, you know, becomes a little bit. a speed bump, like you're not able to go as fast. You can't spend as much money. So they've had a lot of success using spark loop.

You know, it's great for newsletters that basically can't afford to wait three, six, 12 months. And that's just my personal opinion. Okay.

Dylan Redekop: Perfect. No, that's great. Thanks, man. I appreciate [00:33:00] that. So We've gone, we've gone about, uh, you know, a little over time. So I think thanks for hanging on with me. We've gone through a lot of great information here, all about paid ads, focusing mostly on meta and you know how you can recoup some of those costs as well.

So why don't you quickly share before we let you go share with our audience where they can find you on social media and where they can learn about what you do for newsletter

Gunnar Holm: operators. Bye bye. Sure. Um, you can find me on Twitter and my handle is, uh, home is the name. So my last name home is the name.

And then you can check out my agency at growjoy. co. And that's pretty much it.

Dylan Redekop: Perfect. Okay, great. We'll link those all up in the show notes, of course. And yeah, I'm really excited to see how you guys are continuing to, you know, get amazing results for your clients because you share them all publicly in terms of the success that you've seen.

And so it's been awesome watching you guys crush it. And all the best in 2024. Thanks for coming on. Thank you so much, [00:34:00] Dylan. Thanks.

Gunnar Holm: All right.

Dylan Redekop: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Send Grow podcast. If you like what you heard, here are three quick ways that you can show your support. Number one, leave us a five star rating and review in the podcast app of your choice.

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Thanks and see you next [00:35:00] week.